CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: the speaker fight.
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
That was easy, huh?
CHUCK TODD:
After 14 failed attempts --
HOUSE CLERK:
A speaker has not been elected. A speaker has not been elected. A speaker has not been elected.
CHUCK TODD:
House Republicans finally elect a speaker in a battle that hasn't been seen since the run-up to the Civil War.
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
We will use the power of the purse and power of the subpoena to get the job done.
CHUCK TODD:
Kevin McCarthy gains the speaker's gavel after making major concessions to a small group of hard-liners.
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
Because it took this long, now we learned how to govern.
CHUCK TODD:
But was the chaos behind the fight a preview of how the House Republicans will govern? I'll talk with one of McCarthy's top detractors, Republican Dan Bishop of North Carolina, and one of McCarthy's biggest supporters, Republican Congressman James Comer of Kentucky.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
We will never compromise our principles.
CHUCK TODD:
And while Republicans were divided this week, Democrats remained enthusiastically united behind their new historic leader. I'll speak exclusively with Congressman Hakeem Jeffries of New York. Plus: bridge building.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
We can work together. We can get things done.
CHUCK TODD:
As Washington was consumed by the House drama, President Biden showcased his bipartisan accomplishments in Kentucky.
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
We ought to look for things we can agree on and try to do those even while we have big differences on other things.
CHUCK TODD:
And: losing influence. Donald Trump's top supporters are now ignoring him.
REP. LAUREN BOEBERT:
Even having my favorite president call us and tell us we need to knock this off -- I actually think it needs to be reversed.
CHUCK TODD:
After years of holding a tight grip on the GOP, is Trump's influence diminishing? Joining me for insight and analysis are: Politico "Playbook" co-author Rachel Bade, Former Republican Congressman Carlos Curbelo, Symone Sanders-Townsend, former chief spokesperson for Vice President Kamala Harris and Jake Sherman, co-founder of Punchbowl News. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. What a start to the new year. What we saw this week was a decade in the making. Since the downfall of the Bush presidency, the Republican Party has had an identity crisis, from the Tea Party to the Freedom Caucus, Republicans know what they are against, but they can’t seem to agree on a vision of what they’re for. To be clear, this intra-party debate is the cause of the lion’s share of so-called “Washington dysfunction.” What should have been an easy victory lap for this new House Republican majority instead became a brutal, four-day game of chicken. For 14 excruciating rounds of votes -- a record stretching back before the Civil War -- Kevin McCarthy fell short again ... and again ... and again.
[BEGIN TAPE]
REP. BOB GOOD:
You never have to ask me if -- again if I'm a no on Kevin McCarthy. I will never vote for Kevin McCarthy.
REP. MATT GAETZ:
If Kevin McCarthy doesn't bow out, then he will have to live the entirety of his speakership in a straight jacket.
REP. CHIP ROY:
Our message to Speaker-elect McCarthy is that that framework serves as the template by which we're going to be holding him accountable.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And even on the second anniversary of the January 6th insurrection -- a fight even nearly got physical on the House floor at the very end. This was supposed to be the easy part for the House Republicans. Legislating is what's hard -- and it is going to be harder. Among McCarthy's concessions: a provision that would enable any one member to oust him from the job. So imagine going through these roll call votes at random times throughout the year because one Republican House member is upset at leadership. This was not exactly how the Republican Party wanted to showcase itself to the American public as a future governing party. Among the questions now: Can these House Republicans avoid the fate of the House Republicans of ‘94 whose actions helped re-elect Bill Clinton in ‘96? Or the House Republicans of ‘10 whose actions helped re-elect Barack Obama two years later? Can the government keep the lights on? Both of those Republican Houses helped orchestrate government shutdowns, will this Republican House do the same? The first big test is going to be the debt ceiling: McCarthy has already pledged not to raise the debt limit without major cuts. It’s a promise that raises the specter of government default. Will Congress even be able to fund the Defense Department, especially in the middle of Ukraine’s war with Russia that is largely being funded by the United States? Will House Republican investigations be more professional or simply be personal attacks for political gain? And is this the beginning of more chaos that will define the Republican Party over the next two years? We are looking at a Republican Party that has a lot of leaders who have no followers and a lot of followers who aren’t interested in having leaders. Even conservative media icons couldn’t persuade these holdouts. Donald Trump’s influence this week was minimal at best. While Trump couldn't close the deal for McCarthy and save him, he did have the power to harm him, which explains McCarthy’s attempt to give him some credit. Perhaps the only good news to come from all this for Kevin McCarthy, the bar for success for his speakership couldn’t be much lower right now. Joining me now is Republican Congressman Dan Bishop of North Carolina. After opposing Kevin McCarthy on 11 ballots, Bishop did flip his vote and started to support him on the twelfth ballot after the deal that Chip Roy helped negotiate with Kevin McCarthy. And congressman Bishop is here now. Welcome to Meet the Press, sir.
REP. DAN BISHOP:
Thank you, Chuck. Thank you, Chuck, glad to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start this. You were a holdout for quite a long time, and in fact you said, "We're going to hold Kevin McCarthy accountable to his promises," after you decided to support him. What are those promises, in the spirit of transparency? You guys wanted to do this in public, so tell me the deal in public that you agreed to.
REP. DAN BISHOP:
Well, there's no hesitancy about that. The terms are out, Chuck. Twenty courageous members of the House Republican conference made sure that we've, quite contrary to your intro, nailed down a vision for a Republican majority so that we know what we're doing together. We have restored genuine parliamentary participation to the body, rather than have it run in a Pelosi style, backroom deal-making. We have agreed to specific and achievable fiscal commitments to prevent the Democrats from winning every negotiation. And there's several other details, but the big one, or a big one for me and that I worked on personally, we have nailed down in complete detail the terms of a select committee to investigate the weaponization of the federal government against Americans and to make sure that it is sufficiently vested with authority to get the job done.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you this: Do you feel, in the words of Matt Gaetz, that Kevin McCarthy is in a “straight jacket?”
REP. DAN BISHOP:
Not in the – not in the slightest. What we've done by doing the hard work up front, and again, this work began with proposals for rules, changes that those of us who worked on this began back in July, and it took a long time before the dialogue could begin, but members throughout the conference have celebrated those proposals in the main. Now you mentioned one, the motion to vacate the chair. You suggest that we demanded something new. No, that's been in the rules, that's been in parliamentary law in the United States since the country began until Pelosi eliminated it at the beginning of the last Congress. We simply undid the trammeling upon tradition in the House that Nancy Pelosi had engaged in. So I just take a different view I think, Chuck, than you about whether this is good or bad. It's positive, not negative. It's not weakening Kevin McCarthy. It's providing the speaker with the tools he needs for Republicans to go to the mat for the American people.
CHUCK TODD:
Has it dawned on you you wouldn't have gotten any of this had Republicans won 10 or 15 more House seats in November?
REP. DAN BISHOP:
It has dawned on me, and I think that's true. I think that's a good moment for introspection. People seem to believe – you know, Hakeem Jeffries in his speech that was supposed to be introducing Kevin McCarthy but it lasted about an hour, he celebrated the unanimity of the Democrats. President Xi likes unanimity in China as well. That's not the nature of American democracy in my view. By having an opportunity for a group to raise questions and to make sure that we address them, we actually have advanced the ball. We're not going to be having very elemental disagreements pop up over and over across the course of this Congress because we didn't get the job done ahead of time. We have. Now we're going to work for the American people.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you accept the premise of majority rule? And I say that because 91% of the House Republicans wanted to elect Kevin McCarthy as speaker for three days. Nine percent of you were holding it back. 91 to nine. And I ask that because you guys have control of 1/6 essentially of government right now. If Democrats have majority in the Senate and Democrats have the White House, why shouldn't they have the lion's share of winning most negotiations?
REP. DAN BISHOP:
Do you believe, Chuck, that by majority rule you mean that when a majority has decided something or the plurality of the Republican conference, for example, the others should be told what to do? Is that what you're saying?
CHUCK TODD:
You get a vote. And you vote no, but, you know, if there are --
REP. DAN BISHOP:
Exactly--
CHUCK TODD:
– 218 --
REP. DAN BISHOP:
– you get a vote --
CHUCK TODD:
– members of Congress that want to raise the debt ceiling you can object, but there might be 218 that want to raise the debt ceiling without trying to tank the government, without doing these spending cuts, want to do it cleanly. Will you respect that?
REP. DAN BISHOP:
Oh, absolutely. If a majority decides to do something that becomes the law. That’s the – but the notion that people are going to be ordered what to do in order to get to that majority doesn't seem like the right play. If you're saying, on the other hand, should Republicans turn to Democrats or act as if Democrats are the majority and accede to their priorities for government in the House, no. That's exactly the opposite of what we should do. Republicans should make sure we fulfill our responsibilities to voters who elected a majority of Republicans. And I think what you've seen is that Democrats have shown greater will in previous times when we had divided government. That can't be the case. We've got to show will also on behalf of the voters that sent us to Washington to fight for them.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, there were a lot of Republicans arguing what you were arguing on the campaign trail. And particularly in Senate races, but in many House races, they got rejected at the ballot box. Does the fact that voters rejected many members that share your point of view at all impact on the fact that maybe you just need to go out there and campaign more, that you can't sort of hold a chamber hostage because you're not getting your way?
REP. DAN BISHOP:
I think Democrats have gotten their way with great success. And I don't think your read of the election is right, Chuck. I think what people were looking for is they were – Republican voters in particular, is they were looking for – they wanted to be convinced that Republicans had conviction about what was being sold to them. They were uncertain about that. Now, I also don't disagree that at the margin people want to have elected officials. They want their candidates, including Republican candidates, to exercise mature and reasoned judgment. But that doesn't mean to lie down and be rolled over by Democrats, whether they're in the majority or the minority. And so my view is we've had an opportunity to take a hard look at each other in the Republican conference over the course of this past week. Folks in the media constantly said, "Oh, it's dysfunction and chaos." No, it was deciding the most important questions about how this Congress is going to proceed, and we accomplished an enormous amount. As one very sophisticated person in this area observed, this agreement we received is transformational for Congress, and we're going to have a great and productive Congress.
CHUCK TODD:
Bottom line, do you trust Kevin McCarthy, or do you simply trust what you've seen on paper?
REP. DAN BISHOP:
I think Kevin McCarthy is an extraordinarily talented leader. He will – with all of this having been laid down, I'm confident that we're going to, under his leadership, accomplish a great deal for the American people.
CHUCK TODD:
Congressman Dan Bishop, Republican in North Carolina, who was a McCarthy detractor for 12 ballots, after negotiating a deal he supported him. Appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us. Thank you, sir. In his first speech as Speaker of the House, Kevin McCarthy previewed part of the Republican agenda.
[BEGIN TAPE]
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY:
We will hold the swamp accountable, from the withdrawal of Afghanistan, to the origins of Covid and to the weaponization of the FBI. Let me be very clear: We will use the power of the purse and the power of the subpoena to get the job done.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Well, speaking of subpoenas, joining me now is the incoming chair of the House Oversight Committee, Republican Congressman James Comer of Kentucky, who was a Kevin McCarthy backer on all 15 ballots, if you're keeping score at home. Congressman Comer, welcome back to Meet the Press.
REP. JAMES COMER:
Thanks for having me.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with the deal that was cut before we get to what your focus is going to be. Are you convinced that we can go the entire Congress without having a motion to vacate?
REP. JAMES COMER:
Well, I'm not convinced we can go the entire Congress without having it. But I believe that, if that's used, I believe that right now the overwhelming majority -- and when I say overwhelming majority, 218 plus Republicans realize that Kevin McCarthy needs a chance to govern, and we're going to give him a chance. So I'm not going to say there won't be one person who tries to abuse that motion, but I'm confident that McCarthy's going to be able to be given the green light to govern and to lead this conference, and do the things that we told the American people we were going to do during the midterm elections.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, the last time you were on, you said a similar thing. You worded it that way about Kevin McCarthy: "Hey, I think you got to give him a chance." Many people interpreted that comment as not a robust endorsement of his speakership. It doesn't always sound like a robust endorsement. Is it?
REP. JAMES COMER:
It is a robust endorsement. Look, I know that people are disappointed. A lot of Republicans, I represent an overwhelmingly-Republican district that Trump won by nearly 50 points the first election, when he got elected the first time. They constantly seem disappointed that Republicans aren't able to do the things that Republicans say they're going to do, like, for example, vote for a term limits bill. That is overwhelmingly popular among conservative voters in America. Republicans always campaign for Congress in two things. They say, "We're going to pass a term limits bill, and we're going to pass a balanced budget amendment." But yet, those two votes are neither voted on. So I understand the frustration that a lot of new members, a lot of new conservatives have. And you know, they drew a line in the sand on some of these bills that we always campaign on but we never seem to vote on. And I'm confident Kevin has heard from our conference that we want to vote on these things. And I'm confident that we'll do it. Look, it's going to be a tough job. That's why nobody else tried to run for speaker. It is a tough job to get to 218. But I believe Kevin's the right guy, and I was proud to not only support him, I nominated him on the House floor for speaker.
CHUCK TODD:
What, you know, I'm curious, those two things you mention, those are show votes. They're not going to pass, they have no chance of passing. Some of them might be un– might need to be constitutional amendments, and you know how arduous that process is. What's the point of passing a bill that’s – that basically, you get to put a press release out on but it doesn't get enacted?
REP. JAMES COMER:
A lot of times, as you know, Chuck, you have to take bills through numerous sessions of Congress before they finally become law. More and more candidates will run for the U.S. Senate and claim that they support term limits, and they support a balanced budget amendment. I think you have two coming into the Senate now from the House, Ted Budd and Markwayne Mullin, that would support that. They replace members of the Senate that probably wouldn't have voted for that. So we’ve got to start taking steps to make fundamental change in America. And I've always said, from my first campaign for Congress to today, that if we want to fundamentally change Congress, the two things that we can do today is pass a term limits bill and pass a balanced budget amendment. Because if there's not a balanced budget amendment, I don't have a lot of confidence that Congress is ever going to balance the budget.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to ask about the debt ceiling very quickly. Given the fact that in this new rules package you're going to have separate votes on each appropriations package, isn't that the proper place to have a spending debate, not playing with the full faith and credit of the United States government?
REP. JAMES COMER:
Well, look, Congress has been broken. That's what John McCain said during the health care vote when he walked up and he gave a thumbs down. He said, you know, "We’ve got to get back to regular order." Regular order is to pass 12 different appropriations bills. And I think that we’ve got to have the debate, whenever and wherever on the House floor, to the federal debt. I mean, who's going to pay for all this? And you mention in your monologue that Democrats get along better than Republicans. I don't dispute that. But here's the reason: Democrats unite around spending money. Whenever you have an unlimited amount of money and you can promise every Democrat any amount of money, any earmark, any new social program, they're always going to get on board in the end. You look at the Republicans, we want to actually balance the budget, which means we're going to have to make spending cuts in every area of state government except Social Security and Medicare. And that's a lot tougher job, so it's going to be tougher for Republicans to get to 218. But I believe we will.
CHUCK TODD:
So I guess I go back to the debt limit. You think that’s an – you think that’s an appropriate place to use it, even though it has no chance of passing under that – using that configuration?
REP. JAMES COMER:
I think the American people need to see that there are people in Congress that are serious about the federal debt. This is something that's being passed to our children and grandchildren. It puts America further behind China in the long-term. Our debt is one of the biggest challenges we face to the national security. So I think that what we're doing here is important. We're going to have to have spending cuts at some point. And just to say we're going to have spending cuts, I've been in Congress six years and I have yet to see any appropriations committee in either chamber make substantive spending cuts. We’ve got to get serious about it, and I think this is the proper path moving forward.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you this. You're going to do a lot of oversight, you're going to have a lot of subpoenas. Many people look at what you're doing and they see that it looks more partisan than professional. Tell me how you're going to try to de-partisanize an investigation? Or do you expect it to be partisan?
REP. JAMES COMER:
Well, with all due respect, Chuck, I disagree with that. I think the only people that see this as a partisan investigation are the media and the hardcore Democrats. Look, at the same moment that the Democrats on the Ways and Means Committee released Donald Trump's taxes, they then moments later turned around and said, "Comer's investigation of the Biden family influence peddling is a revenge hearing." I mean, are you kidding me? Look, a Harvard poll just came out and said 65% of the Americans believe that the contents of Hunter Biden's laptop should be investigated. But let me be clear, we're not investigating Hunter Biden, we're investigating Joe Biden. And I think any American who's kept up with the political process over the past two administrations would agree, we need to know what is allowable and what isn't allowable with respect to foreign adversarial intervention among family members of presidents of the United States. That's something that the Democrats complained about with Kushner, and certainly the Republicans, myself included, have complained about --
CHUCK TODD:
Do you see why the --
REP. JAMES COMER:
– with Hunter Biden and Jim Biden, the president's son and brother.
CHUCK TODD:
So if you didn't like --
REP. JAMES COMER:
We have go to –
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you this –
REP. JAMES COMER:– do something about this.
CHUCK TODD:
If you didn't like the way the Democrats did it, it sounds like you're going to do it in the same way that they did it. How is it any better?
REP. JAMES COMER:
No, very – I totally disagree with that. Adam Schiff always over-promised and under-delivered. He said just last week that releasing Trump's tax returns was going to be a bombshell. I mean, there's no bombshell there. There's nothing there.Anyone – I've served on a bank board for over a decade. There's never been a developer that's paid a lot of federal income tax because of depreciation, and tax credits, and things like that. If the Democrats want to make people like Donald Trump pay taxes they need to change the tax code -- not the tax rate, the tax code. But with respect to what we're doing, everything that we have requested we have evidence to back up. There are emails and text messages that show Hunter Biden complaining about having to spend so much money keeping his dad up. I mean, that's a concern because Hunter Biden's only source of income were from our adversaries in China and Russia for influence peddling. So this is something that we should look into. This isn't political. We want to know, was the president truthful when he said he didn't have any knowledge or involvement of his family's shady business dealings? Once we've determined that, we'll move on.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, it does sound personal, at that. And we'll see how the year goes on. Congressman Comer, Republican from Kentucky. Really appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us. Thank you. When we come back, he's making history as the first African American lawmaker to lead a party in Congress. Democratic Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, the new House Democratic Leader, of New York is next.
[BEGIN TAPE]
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
House Democrats will always put American values over autocracy, benevolence over bigotry, the Constitution over the cult, democracy over demagogues, economic opportunity over extremism, freedom over fascism, governing over gaslighting, hopefulness over hatred .
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. In case you missed it, that was the ABC’s of what House Democrats plan to fight for. On a week consumed by infighting on the Republican side, Democrats made history -- formally elevating Congressman Hakeem Jeffries as their leader – the first Black lawmaker to lead either party in Congress. At 52 -- ready for this -- he is also the first lawmaker elected to lead House Democrats that was born after the end of World War II. And Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries joins me now. Leader Jeffries, welcome back to Meet the Press, and first of all, congratulations.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Thank you, Chuck. Good morning. Happy New Year.
CHUCK TODD:
Thank you, sir. Let me start with your take on the concessions Kevin McCarthy made in order to gain the speakership. What are the ones that concern you the most about the functionality of the House?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Well, our general concern is that the dysfunction that was historic that we saw this week is not at an end, it's just the beginning. And while the Congress was held captive this particular time, what is going to be a problem is if the American people will be held captive over the next two years to the extreme MAGA Republican agenda that apparently has been negotiated into the House rules and the functioning of the Congress. That's going to undermine the health, the safety and the well-being of the American people. It may undermine national security and a robust defense, and undermine our ability to actually advance an agenda that is anchored in kitchen table, pocketbook issues and not extremism.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, one of the things that I've noticed in Washington, no matter -- when an institution gets weakened, even when the party changes hands, it's sometimes hard to restrengthen that institution. Are you concerned that, should you have the good fortune of, of having the ability to be speaker, that it's actually going to be hard to restore some of these powers?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
No. Our concern right now is on getting things done for everyday Americans and tackling the business that is in front of us -- making sure that we have a farm bill that makes sense for the American people, making sure that we actually can fund a government that invests in economic opportunity, invests in the health and the public safety of the American people, making sure that we don't default on our debt for the first time in American history, making sure that we reauthorize important agencies like the FAA so we can strengthen air travel in these country -- in this country. This is the agenda that we're going to focus on as Democrats: lower costs, better-paying jobs, American jobs that can be brought back to this country. And I'm very, very troubled by the way in which the Congress has started. And hopefully, that doesn't portend what's to come.
CHUCK TODD:
Are we going to be governing by discharge petition? And I apologize to the viewers. What does that mean? It just is where basically you have to -- a handful of Republicans working with Democrats would work outside the leadership, forcing maybe a clean debt limit raise, keeping the lights on for government. Is that the reality of the next two years?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Well, what we've indicated from the beginning is that we are going to extend the hand of partnership to the other side of the aisle, make sure that we can find common ground whenever, and wherever possible. We will oppose extremism, of course, whenever necessary. And there are Republicans who are interested in governing. And they're going to have to break from the extreme wings of their party at times around some important issues. And we'll see how that all unfolds.
CHUCK TODD:
Speaker Pelosi did not have a great relationship with Kevin McCarthy. What's yours?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Well, Kevin McCarthy and I have had some positive, forward-looking conversations over the last few weeks. And I'm hopeful that we'll be able to build upon those conversations to do the right thing for the American people. Clearly, we are going to have strong disagreements at times. But we can agree to disagree without being disagreeable. That is what I believe the American people would like to see in terms of a functional House, a functional Senate, a functional government. I look forward to building upon the Biden agenda, tremendous accomplishments from the American Rescue Plan, to the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, to gun safety legislation for the first time in 30 years, the CHIPS and Science Act, the Inflation Reduction Act and moving the country forward. And if Kevin McCarthy is willing to try to find common ground in that regard, they will find willing partners amongst House Democrats.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, a five-seat House majority is the equivalent of, of arguably a one seat or the 50-50 Senate. I mean, you know -- I mean, it is that narrow. If you thought you could find five Republicans to, to support you or the Democrats and it actually changed the majority, would you pursue looking for five party switchers?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
We are going to pursue an agenda that protects the public interest, that ensures economic opportunity in every corner of America, that builds upon the moment that we're in. We have an inflationary environment, of course, that we continue to fight. And let me point out, Chuck, Republicans spent months saying that they were going to fight inflation. They came to Washington and spent their first week fighting each other. What we need to do is fight for everyday Americans. That is what we are going to try to do as we move forward as House Democrats. And we look forward to trying to find some reasonable Republicans who are willing to break from the extreme elements of their conference to do the business of the American people.
CHUCK TODD:
But you're not necessarily looking for any of them to switch parties and put you in the speaker's office?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
We're dealing right now with a Republican majority that is narrow, a House that is evenly divided. And that is going to require bipartisan cooperation. It doesn't mean unconditional surrender. Democrats are always going to stand behind our principles. But we are willing to find common ground to fight for the things that the American people care about: lower costs, better-paying jobs, safer communities being right at the top of the list.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to ask you about a couple of issues. President Biden is headed to the border today, is going to have a, is going to have some meetings with the presidents of, of Canada and Mexico. But I'm curious what you think about his new border policies – expanding Title 42 to asylum seekers from Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua; the third country asylum rule. There'll be a new pathway for some migrants, but Title 42 will still be there, and the transit ban will still be there. How do you feel about these decisions?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Well I look forward to hearing what President Biden has to say later after his communications. I do think that the Biden administration is trying to tackle a tough issue in a way that is consistent with both the principle that America is a nation of immigrants – that gorgeous mosaic of people from across the world who come here to pursue the American dream has been a part of American excellence – but also, of course, making sure there's a safe and a secure and a strong border. Now with respect to Title 42, it was my understanding that the Biden Administration is bound by some court decisions and are working through that. We'll see what the judicial process leads to. But, at least as it relates to the Democratic side of the aisle, we look forward to having a positive, forward-looking, positive discussion. We're not going to try to weaponize the issue for political gain, as some of my colleagues on the Republican side of the aisle clearly would like to do.
CHUCK TODD:
Before I let you go, you're the first African American to lead a party in Congress. What does that mean to you? What does that mean to the country?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Well, I look forward to doing the best possible job, to staying focused, to getting things done. But I do think that it is another data point on the journey in America, which is we are a government of the people, by the people and for the people. And that means that folks from a working-class neighborhood in central Brooklyn like myself should have an opportunity to participate in American governance, particularly in the House of Representatives, which is the institution designed to be the closest to the people. And we're proud of the fact, as House Democrats, that we are one of the most diverse caucuses in American history, truly reflecting the hopes, the dreams and the aspirations, and as the framers would say, the passions of the American people in the most authentic way possible. And I'm proud to be a part of that team.
CHUCK TODD:
You just helped preview a Data Download I will have later in the show that shows how Congress -- how reflective is this Congress of the American population? Hakeem Jeffries, the new leader of the Democratic Party in the House. Again, congratulations and I appreciate you coming on and sharing your views.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Thank you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Up next, was the fight for the speaker's gavel a preview of how Republicans will behave in the next Congress? Panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, panel is here. Rachael Bade, co-author of Politico Playbook; Jake Sherman, co-founder of Punchbowl News; former Republican Congressman Carlos Curbelo; and Symone Sanders-Townsend, host of Symone on MSNBC, and of course a former chief spokesperson for Vice President Kamala Harris. Alright, let me go to the Playbookers and the Punchbowlers here. Look, is Kevin McCarthy a speaker in name only or is he a resilient survivor?
RACHAEL BADE:
I would say the former, at least at this point. I mean, look, he got the gavel. But he very much gave away his own power in the House. And so, you know, I think what we saw on the floor this week, it obviously is just a prelude to the chaos we're going to see. I mean, these conservatives, they were able to win powerful committee assignments. They were able to get what they wanted in terms of rules changes to make sure they could oust him at any moment. So anytime they are unhappy with him, they can, they’re going to – and as, you know, we saw just a few minutes ago James Comer told you, it's a matter of time before the motion to vacate, you know, this move to oust him, comes forward. The other thing is, you know, they can stop any legislation they want. And they, because of their position on these House --
CHUCK TODD:
When you say "they," Freedom Caucus people?
RACHAEL BADE:
I'm sorry, conservatives, conservatives. Because of their new position on the House Rules Committee, they're going to be able to make Republicans take really difficult votes that the leadership has long protected them from taking. And it's just going to be pretty tough for them.
CHUCK TODD:
Is this a Don Bacon nightmare?
JAKE SHERMAN:
Yes and no. We were just talking about this off set.
CHUCK TODD:
And for those viewers, Don Bacon's sort of a Biden district in Omaha. He's sort of my, one of the people I use as an example of, you know --
JAKE SHERMAN:
Yeah, Brian Fitzpatrick, a lot of these --
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, it's the same thing.
JAKE SHERMAN:
The New York Republicans. Yeah, I mean, listen, I've argued that moderates actually benefit from voting against a lot of these bills, actually. And it serves both sides. Conservatives can vote for right-wing bills. Moderates can vote against it. Maybe they pass, maybe they don't. But yeah, it's tough. Moderates need to – House moderates, Republican moderates have a lot of sway if they decide to use it. The Rules Committee stuff is difficult, I would say, for Republicans. But moderates are, there are many more moderates in a 222-seat House, they have a lot more power than people think.
CARLOS CURBELO:
Well, but they have to be willing to pick up arms --
JAKE SHERMAN:
To use it.
CARLOS CURBELO:
The problem in the House Republican Conference, Chuck, has been that there's only been one armed faction for a decade. The moderates, every time they're going to make a move, the leadership says, "Don't, don't. Just, we'll handle it." The moderates sit back.
JAKE SHERMAN:
But wait a second --
CARLOS CURBELO:
They watch the leadership wrestle with this group. The leadership gets weakened. Guess what? You can't do that anymore because now the speaker's weaker than ever before because of all these concessions.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think that hurt you when you ran for reelection, that in some ways the Republicans not protecting a moderate like you from certain votes hurt you?
CARLOS CURBELO:
Well, yes. But at the end of the day, you have to become a protagonist. You can't sit back and watch this. Otherwise, you're going to be sitting, like you did all week this week, watching an embarrassment and being frustrated. So the moderates have an opportunity this week with this rules package. They can make a statement. They can amend it somehow. They can bring it down. They have to do that, otherwise they're going to be sitting in this position of, you know, being in this tyranny of the minority. And they're probably going to lose in two years.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Yeah, I mean, look, there are many moderate Republicans out there now who are teasing that they are willing to do just that on this rules package coming up. Democrats were never going to vote for the rules package, right? It's not their rules. But the reason we did not see the vote for this rules package, finally after the long saga --
CHUCK TODD:
They didn't know if they had the votes, did they?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
They did not have the votes. They sent a whip statement right after, Republicans did, saying, "Folks are going home. We'll see you all at 5:00 p.m. on Monday." I think juxtaposing what we saw in the Republican conference with what we saw from Democrats, night and day. Night and day.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I can't believe I'm going to say this. I think I'm the oldest one of the five of you here. I've seen this movie before: 1994, 2010. How does this movie end any differently, other than House Republicans somehow helping Democrats and the president?
RACHAEL BADE:
Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of Democrats were very happy this week to sort of see this chaos play out. I mean, Republicans have said that they’re going to, when they flip the House, they're going to use their investigative power, they're going to, you know, stand up and counter the Biden administration. The reality is there's going to be so much chaos that the story is going to be about these Republicans and, you know, the infighting here. The big question I have is sort of how long can Kevin McCarthy hold on as speaker. I think that, you know, I was hearing from a lot of his allies this week that, even if he gets the gavel, they are concerned that the motion to vacate will come up so soon. Well, maybe not in the next couple of months, but this year at some point.
CHUCK TODD:
Probably this summer with the debt ceiling, right?
RACHAEL BADE:
Exactly. And, you know, this is going to happen again. And we could see a potential another speaker next year.
CHUCK TODD:
Why, Jake, is there so much divorcing from the reality of the midterms? I mean, the irony here is that we don’t have – you know, the faction that held McCarthy hostage is the faction that prevented them from getting control of the Senate and more House seats.
JAKE SHERMAN:
Yeah, this has long been a problem in House Republican circles. They oftentimes take the wrong or no message from political fallout from political elections. Listen, most, 90% – I'm making that number up – but a huge chunk of House Republicans go home to districts in which Donald Trump still retains 95% approval rating and they live in their own political bubble. And now, I guess, a little bit less, because you have Republicans from New York and from kind of the northeast that are in Biden districts. But that’s, they just go home to their own bubble. And the leadership doesn't do anything to talk truth to them. And this has kind of been going on forever.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, quickly, is Trump – did we see Trump weakness or Trump strength this week?
CARLOS CURBELO:
I thought we saw a lot of weakness.
CHUCK TODD:
Or irrelevance?
CARLOS CURBELO:
I mean, right at the end I guess he helped move two or three members which, given the margins, was significant. But the first time Trump spoke out and kind of pushed these members, people ignored him. And some of them vocally said, "Well, you know, we don't really care." Even Lauren Boebert said, "It was nice to get a call, but it doesn't matter to me." Trump is no longer in control. I mean, when I was in the House those first two years of the Trump presidency, all these members would say, "Wait, wait, hold on. Let's see what the president's going to do. Let's see what the president's going to say." I think that's over.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Kevin McCarthy couldn't even stand up for himself at the end. He gave all the credit to Donald Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, and there's a reason for that.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Okay? I'm just like --
CHUCK TODD:
Trump, I was told that they know Trump couldn't help them, but they know Trump could pull the rug out from under them.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Absolutely.
CHUCK TODD:
And that's why he was thanking him. "Thanks for not walking away," is what --
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Continuing to bend the knee. And what has it gotten him?
RACHAEL BADE:
He got the speakership.
CHUCK TODD:
Let's pause there. This week's long, drawn-out speaker election is not the first time midterm losses have fueled a Republican revolt. After unexpected losses in 1998, then-Speaker Newt Gingrich was forced out of power by his fellow Republicans. He stepped down just hours after his longtime friend, Congressman Bob Livingston, said he intended to challenge Gingrich for the speakership. Here's your Meet the Press minute.
[BEGIN TAPE]
TIM RUSSERT:
Earlier this year you said, "I've been a loyalist. I am a loyalist. I will support Newt Gingrich until the day he voluntarily decides to resign." And yet, Bob Livingston called Newt Gingrich and said, "Newt, I'm running against you."
REP. BOB LIVINGSTON:
It's a tough question, Tim. Newt Gingrich and I have been allies for 20 years. We've been good friends. Fact is, though, that after the election results, Republicans didn't do what we thought we were going to do. We thought we were going to pick up 15 to 20 seats. We lost five. And we had to search our souls. I talked to people from all over the country as to why it happened. And I became convinced that Newt Gingrich could not hold on to the speakership, whether in the next few days or the next few months. And once I came to that conclusion, I'd asked myself who could best succeed him. And after talking to a lot of people, I felt that I could.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
But Livingston never did become speaker. Less than a month after that interview, he announced that he would instead resign from Congress the next year, following revelations of an extramarital affair, on tape, no less. Illinois Congressman Dennis Hastert instead became speaker with just 223 seats. At the time, it was one of the slimmest majorities until this 118th Congress. When we come back, does this Congress look like the rest of America? How truly representative is the people's House?
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, Data Download time. Now that we finally have 118th Congress actually being sworn in, let's take a look at the makeup of the so-called “People's House” and the upper chamber, if you will, to get an idea of how much our leaders actually reflect the country they represent. Spoiler alert: They really don't. Let's start by gender: 72% of this Congress is male. Overall, the population is majority female. But believe it or not, despite this massive deficit of women leadership in Congress, this 28% number is actually the highest ever recorded in Congress. Let's take a look at race and ethnicity. This Congress is more white and less diverse than the overall national population. And yes, while overall these numbers have been increasing, when it comes to diversity in Congress, still badly lacking being reflective of the overall population. Religion is another place where it seems to be two different stories. In Congress, 88% are Christian. You have -- people are more Jewish in Congress than the overall population. And then look at this one: Nearly a third of Americans don't identify with any religion. Good luck finding somebody in Congress to represent that point of view. Less than 1% of all elected members of Congress represent that sort of unaffiliated religious point of view. Now, this is not equal by party, as you can see. Democratic members of Congress -- the Democratic caucuses are less male, less white and less Christian. But as you can see overall, still big majorities in all three as compared to the Republicans. And then finally, let's look about age. Believe it or not, this is the third oldest Congress we have ever had. Obviously, folks are living longer. But just take a look at this. The average age of the House this year is 58. Forty years ago it was 49. The average age of the Senate -- even older, not surprising to folks, right? Sixty-four. Forty years ago it was 54. When we come back, while Republicans were clashing with themselves this week, President Biden was flying above the fray, touting his bipartisan accomplishments. How will the White House deal with this next phase of his presidency?
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. This was one of those weeks for Joe Biden that I have a feeling you're going to see in a lot of his campaign ads. With Republican dysfunction on display, the White House leaned into the split screen. On Wednesday, Biden made a show of bipartisanship, marking a new era of divided government by touting his infrastructure law in person with a smiling Mitch McConnell at Kentucky's Brent Spence Bridge, among other things. I mean, Symone, I feel like we got a preview of, I think, how the Biden White House publicly wants to showcase how they're governing versus the House Republicans.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Yes. I think what we saw over this last week is what we can expect going forward for the next two years. President Biden has said that he is going to pass bipartisan legislation where he can. And he's going to go out there and sell it to the American people and demonstrate what this means for them. There are a lot more Brent Spence Bridges across the country due to the bipartisan infrastructure law. There are lots of shovel-ready projects, lots of ribbons to be cut over the next two years. Vice President Harris was in Chicago this week --
CHUCK TODD:
Right, the same day as he was doing the --
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
-- the same day as he was doing the Brent Spence Bridge. And then you have Democrats in Congress, the House, for example -- look, Hakeem Jeffries, he has won the -- not just the support but the respect of his caucus. And I think we also saw that on display.
CHUCK TODD:
And, you know, Carlos, the unemployment report came out. I want to show Ron Klain didn't tweet just once, didn't tweet just twice, didn’t tweet just -- at least three times that I found, “it was the lowest unemployment rate in 50 years,” in case you missed it.
CARLOS CURBELO:
This White House is on a winning streak. And look, I think that divided government is going to allow Joe Biden to be himself. I really think the heaviest burden for him the last two years was this idea that Democrats had unified control of the government. The left having all these ambitious ideas. That's not Joe Biden. Joe Biden's a deal maker. He's a negotiator. He likes to use people as foils. And I think he's going to thrive in this environment.
CHUCK TODD:
Rachael, is the border -- the announcement of the border policy this week an example of this?
RACHAEL BADE:
Yeah. I mean, look, I think it's clear that Biden wants to go to the border to try to sort of head off this talking point Republicans have, which is like, "He's never been down there. He doesn't care."
CHUCK TODD:
And it does penetrate independent voters.
RACHAEL BADE:
It does, yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, immigration and the border truly, much, usually a Republican --
CARLOS CURBELO:
And by the way, it's really bad.
CHUCK TODD:
But there is --
CARLOS CURBELO:
It's a really bad situation --
CHUCK TODD:
It does, it does penetrate independents.
RACHAEL BADE:
Exactly. And, you know, I would say, you know, Republicans have said they want to investigate all these things – Hunter Biden's laptop, et cetera, et cetera. Most of them, when you look at polling, people don't care about it. It's not going to resonate. But, when it comes to the border, I have seen polling that shows that a majority of people actually do care about what's going on down there. And so this is going to be an issue for him, and Republicans are going to absolutely latch onto it.
CARLOS CURBELO:
And I think it's important to note the Biden administration is adopting some Trump policies for the border. I mean, I think they've realized this is untenable. We’re -- in states like Florida, which is not on the southwest border, we are having a massive flood of undocumented immigrants.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Look, when, so the president is going to the border today. And then throughout next -- earlier in the week, he's going to a Summit of the Americas, North America. AMLO, the President López Obrador of Mexico, will be there. There's the root causes and there's the effects. The borders are the effects of the root causes of immigration happening south of our border that have to be addressed. And so I think that there is all this chit-chat about the border and the photo op. But the reality is there's real policy prescriptions that I do think the administration has taken a hand in doing.
JAKE SHERMAN:
Hispanics in Congress, Democratic --
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, I saw they weren’t happy with this.
JAKE SHERMAN:
-- lawmakers are furious. And that's something the White House will have to manage and can't underestimate.
CHUCK TODD:
Obama's White House had to manage that in 2011, 2012.
JAKE SHERMAN:
Yes. And I will say, just broadly speaking, about this president, I agree that he’s going to try to do bipartisan things. I get all that. The thing that matters for Joe Biden is now that there's a House Republican majority that is going to be a complete chaotic mess for two years. It is the greatest thing to happen to Joe Biden. He called Kevin McCarthy yesterday, I know that. He's going to try to play nice with McCarthy. All good. Get it. But having them as a foil is terribly important.
CHUCK TODD:
Very quickly, McConnell and McCarthy, how close are they?
JAKE SHERMAN:
Zero. I mean, they're fine. They don’t have a – they have a fine relationship. But not very close.
CHUCK TODD:
Watch how many times McConnell splits from McCarthy. It will happen --
JAKE SHERMAN:
Of course.
CHUCK TODD:
-- throughout this Congress.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Republicans in disarray.
CHUCK TODD:
Before we go, we want to make sure you have a chance to sign up for our free daily newsletter, First Read. You'll get the best analysis, polling and political news every morning. It's the wisdom before it's conventional. Sign up by scanning the QR code at the bottom of your screen, or just simply go to NBCNews.com/FirstRead. That's all we have for today. Thanks for watching. We'll be back next week. Because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.